Deal? The main difference is that whales don't have an ear canal that works and the bones in the ear aren't attached to the skull. These bones are easy to miss, but I found them impossible to ignore. What are the various components of periosteum. A vestigial femur is still present in some whales while others (such as some sperm and right whales) possess vestigial femur and tibia bones (Slijper, 1958; Thewissen, 1994) Hind limb buds are formed in cetacean embryos using the same developmental mechanisms as those of … Here we create a novel morphometric pipeline to analyze the size and shape evolution of pelvic bones from 130 individuals (29 species) in the context of inferred mating system. Nice to be finally vindicated. From a human psychological point of view, you are right, there is no difference. Common examples in human beings of “vestigial” organs are the appendix, the tailbone, and nipples on males. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....42291.html, Bat Evolution? Swimming for shore. The term vestigial implies a lack of use, purpose, or function. Excerpt: Argentine paleontologist Marcelo Reguero said the fossilized archaeocete jawbone found in February dates back 49 million years. ID proponents also recognize that designed things get old, fall into disuse, break down, etc. Expectation of the Darwinist view (not the Darwinist person), on the other hand, is simply NOTHING! Few animal traits are trotted out as illustrations of evolution as often as the whale’s supposed vestigial hip bones. If species then persist for eons with little modification, that just means evolution takes long breaks. So these types of examples ACTUALLY COUNT AGAINST the main idea that neo-Darwinism proposed… that I came from a rock.. Heck, he probably witnessed some rat jumping back in the day. Excerpt: Of all the supposed whale transitions, ambulocetus is probably the most well known. If clever mechanisms are discovered in biology, that just means evolution is smarter than we imagined. Whenever a fossil part was missing, they substituted a whale body part (blowholes, fins and flukes) on the skeletal model or skull that they distributed to museums. ID proponents also recognize that a trial-and-error evolutionary process can do some things of minor consequence (finch beaks, bacterial resistance, and so on). Whale is large tetrapod mammal with flipper like fore limbs but there is no hindlimb in body. No amount of explanation, discussion, logic or evidence can convince the committed materialist that something is designed, so long as he clings to his incomplete paradigm which does not permit that possibility. When these same scientists later found fossils negating their original interpretations, they did not recall the plaster models or drawings. This in turn connects to two bones, (radius and ulna) which correspond to the lower arm bones in humans. “Our research really changes the way we think about the evolution of whale pelvic bones in particular, but more generally about structures we call ‘vestigial.’ As a parallel, we are now learning that our appendix is actually quite important in several immune processes, not a functionally useless structure,” Dean said. Whales lost their hindlimbs during their evolution when they adapted completely to an aquatic life. A-B 🙂, AB: “How does that cause a problem with evolution?”, BA77: or you could just as have well asked, “How can anything cause a problem for tea leaf reading?”, BA: or you could just as have well asked, “God can do anything so how is this a problem for creationism”. Overall, I’d like to point out, there’s a difference between the metaphsyical theories themselves, and the people who uphold them. So, though I do not think any Christian, Jew or Muslim would abondon believing in God when he/she is confronted with the existence of vestigial organs, he/she would try to find alternative explanations, or avoid thinking about those examples, or simply consider them as “missing links” in his/her belief. Neither pattern was observed in the anterior-most pair of vertebral ribs, which served as a negative control. The Galapagos cormorant has vestigial wings that don't help it to fly or swim, though the birds still dry them off in the sun after they get wet, just as if they would if they still could use them to fly. Excerpt: two new studies in the January 26th issue of Current Biology, a Cell Press publication, show that bats’ and whales’ remarkable ability and the high-frequency hearing it depends on are shared at a much deeper level than anyone would have anticipated — all the way down to the molecular level. Whales have a number of vestigial structures that would have been fully functional in their land-living ancestors, including the pelvic girdle, the hind limbs and the finger muscles. True Vestigial Structures in Whales and Dolphins What Is a Vestigial Structure? If you look at a complete whale skeleton in a museum, you’ll often see the tiny hindlimb and pelvic bones hanging from the rest of the skeleton, suspended by wires. Are these really evolutionary leftovers? In females the anatomical parts are smaller and more diffuse. by Don Batten. The pelvic bones are still there in whale's body but in very ill-developed condition: so in whale pelvis is nonfunctional, or so to say it is vestigial. How much of this is mediated by the ischiocavernosus is not known. Q: Biology textbooks say there are vestigial structures like…(a) human tail bones, (b) whale pelvis, (c) snake hind legs, (d) the appendix, and (e) gill slits on embryos. The muscles that control a cetacean’s penis — which has a high degree of mobility — attach directly to its pelvic bones. The materialist has an anemic and insufficient explanatory toolkit that is missing some of the key tools. As the example of Basilosaurus shows, whales of intermediate age have intermediate-sized vestigial pelves and rear limb bones. Do the collarbones lie over the anterior upper ribs and extend from the sternum to the... How many bones are there in the skeletal system? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRqdvhL3pgM, Whale Evolution? Now here’s the trick. Much the way they employ other euphemisms and metaphors which are their version of filling the gaps where viable real world [those in this universe] explanations are lacking. James G. Mead, Ph.D. – Curator of Marine Mammals – National Museum of Natural History – Smithsonian Institution, Our research really changes the way we think about the evolution of…, Could it be that the research was wrong? It is only when the materialist is intellectually honest enough — or, more often, forced by the events of life — to reconsider his paradigm and worldview that the first ray of light breaks through and a recognition dawns that he has been groping in the dark this whole time and that there is a different, more complete, “more excellent” paradigm available. Yes, and if the discussion gets too specific, they leave you alone in the discussion. If so, what substances are they? Museums should now remove all of the altered skeletons, skulls and drawings since the most important parts of these ‘walking whales’ are admittedly made up. On the other hand, a Darwinist may come up and say “so what is the deal with that, so it’s functional, hence selected, so nothing against Darwinian view!”. Unguided evolution doesn’t have a mechanism capable of getting past prokaryotes. These bones are vestigial (no longer needed) remnants of their evolutionary past. Webster's Third New International Dictionary defines a vestige as "a small and degenerate or imperfectly developed bodily part or organ that remains from one more fully developed in an earlier stage of the individual, in a past generation, or in closely related forms." Instead, we find that the differences today were apparent very early on. KF –, PS: It seems initial disciplinary steps were taken by the Speaker and that investigations are in train: https://twitter.com/LeeChatfield/status/1336737371149242372 This incident... –, F/N: MI legislator issues thinly veiled threats against whistleblowers on events in Detroit, following up from out of order remarks... –, Viola “Hmmm. – video Attached to the carpals are 5 digits, corresponding to our five fingers. Scientists call them vestigial (or left-over) structures. Yet another in the long, long line of alleged “vestigial” organs that have bitten the dust. So all animals would be a problem for it. 1846. These levitating bones are evidence that whales once had hips and walked on land! Otherwise, this “anything goes” approach is not much meaningful to me. Defenders of evolution ask why else would a whale, which has no hind limbs, have hip bones unless they are all that remains of an ancient, land-walking, whale ancestor? They do not have sweat glands, either. This ancient whale, he says, appears to have had small, external legs. I would imagine that there is something homologous to the perineal muscles in man and tetrapods, which affect the entire pelvic area – the clitoris, vagina and anus. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6003501/. Cetaceans (whales and dolphins) offer a unique opportunity to test this hypothesis: since evolving from land-dwelling ancestors, they lost external hind limbs and evolved a highly reduced pelvis which seems to serve no other function except to anchor muscles that maneuver the penis. HOPE had only 3 wrist bones (carpals) but other orcas may have more or fewer carpals. Bergman is an expert on the fanciful history of a llegedly vestigial organs and their fading support for Darwinism. When one considers the magnitude of the engineering fete, such a scenario is found to be devoid of credibility. If no likely mechanism can be found for the large-scale change evolution requires, that just means evolution is mysterious. If we notice the body plan of vertebrates, it would be noted that girdles are bones which allow limbs to get attached to the axial skeleton. The plica semilunaris is a fold of conjunctiva at the inner corner of the human eye. The committed materialist, in contrast, cannot admit to a single act of design in the cosmos or life on Earth. https://www.learnreligions.com/vestigial-organs-say-about-evolution-249897 Can someone out there explain it to them? They're for sex. And this is the formal expecation of the theistic paradigm, not just something some theist would like to believe. “How does that cause a problem with evolution?”, “How can anything cause a problem for tea leaf reading?”. In the catalogue of purported vestigial parts, whale hips are "the marquee example," writes Stephanie Keep at the absurdly named "Science League of America" blog populated by our Darwin-lobbying friends at the National Center for Science Education. Many living species have a vestigial pelvis and leg bones, testifying…to their descent from four-legged ancestors. These bones once belonged to the ancient whale Georgiacetus, which swam along the Gulf Coast of North America roughly 40 million years ago, … Whale Evolution vs. This study provides evidence that sexual selection can affect internal anatomy that controls male genitalia. Fluke starts where chevron bones stop. These bones embedded within its flesh near the region where hip bones are found in other animals were ~thought~ by evolutionists to be the remnants of hip bones on 'ancestors'..in the whales "evolutionary tree." Nictitating Membrane. If significant differences are found in allied species, that just means evolution sometimes introduces new designs rapidly. No hindlimbs means pelvic girdle bones are not anymore needed in whale. Whales are treasure troves of vestigial organs. Creationists have been saying this for years. An example of a vestigial structure in humans is wisdom teeth. Question their use of such purposely ambiguous terms or at least ask for a definition of these suspected evo-gappers and the next evo-adaptation strategy that follows is a visit from the other gang members with a barrage if derogatory insults and personal attacks. In contrast, the materialist must reject any possibility of design, no matter how compelling, no matter how absurd or illogical that rejection. ‘Vestigial’ like the other evolutionary sacred holy term, “Junk DNA”, is an evolutionary adaptation for winning arguments by not having to admit you don’t actually know something important within a debate. When I'm talking to you, or about you, or including... –, The election rules in Georgia state that mail in signatures must be checked against the signature on file at the... –, Frequently raised but weak arguments against Intelligent Design, Pond scum smashes genome into over 225k parts, then rebuilds it, Yes, plants do talk to each other, says prof, http://www.thegrandexperiment......ution.html, http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~d...../v6i2f.htm, http://www.trueauthority.com/cvse/whale.htm, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85kThFEDi8o, http://www.uncommondescent.com.....osenhouse/, http://www.uncommondescent.com.....antartica/, http://www.uncommondescent.com.....ent-356170, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRqdvhL3pgM, http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.....wlers_have, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....42291.html, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z2Lfxpi710, http://www.uncommondescent.com.....evolution/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08e9k-c91E8. 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